User talk:Fowler&fowler/Archive 18

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Fowler&fowler. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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V. S. Naipaul (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

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Karma in Jainism (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

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Hello, Fowler&fowler. You have new messages at Jujhar.pannu's talk page.
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Jujhar.pannu (talk) 03:06, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Gave him a 3RR warning. I'm loathe to do a 3rd revert myself right now, but might later. In any case, this is going to end up semi-protected if the IP continues to revert several editors. Dougweller (talk) 06:33, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

This article is heavily edited by an IP hopper who besides any pov issues doesn't understand or agree with WP:NOR as shown by their recent restoration of content I deleted. If you have time, I'd appreciate your putting it on your watchlist. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 10:05, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. What I assume is one editor using 222 and 125 IPs editing from Chongqing created most of the article. [1] is the diff between the earliest pre-IP article and one of today's version. Dougweller (talk) 13:05, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

:) I think the kind of enhanced family histories people use to write for their grandchildren in the past are now being dumped on Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:07, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

There have been repeated attempts by this user to change the term "Maratha Empire" to "kingdom." I will assume this change is out of ignorance and not page-based sabotage. Therefore, I have provided you with an exhaustive list below of all primary sources that state Emperor Shivaji founded the "Maratha Empire" (not a "kingdom" as you so quaintly put it) in 1674 (note: these sources include both WASP "Westerners" and "Indians", so both perspectives deem the Maratha Empire an "empire" and not a "kingdom"):

Kincaid, D. (1937). The Grand Rebel: An Impression of Shivaji, Founder of the Maratha Empire. Collins.

Talwalker, C. (1996). Shivaji's Army and Other “Natives” in Bombay. Comparative Studies of South Asia, Africa and the Middle East, 16(2), 114-122.

Cooper, R. G. (2003). The anglo-maratha campaigns and the contest for india: the struggle for control of the south asian military economy. Cambridge University Press.

Kincaid, C. A., & lavanta Pārasnīsa, D. B. (1986). Comprehensive History of the Maratha Empire. Anmol Publications.

Nadkarnia, R. V. (1966). The Rise and Fall of the Maratha Empire. Bombay: Popular Prakashan.

Takakhav, N. S. (1921). Life of Shivaji Maharaj: Founder of the maratha empire.

Ranade, M. G. (1900). Rise of the Maratha power (Vol. 1). Punalekar & Company.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.181.166.191 (talk) 06:31, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Those references are neither reliable nor modern. No one uses them. The modern historiography of India describes Shivaji as a warrior-chieftain or a king (raja, little-king). The Sultans of the Deccan, considered Shivaji a "deshmukh," nothing more, and Sambhaji who was smarter than the folk-tales of Maharashtra make him out to be, was a plain old king, the small region under his control, barely a kingdom. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:07, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Fowler&fowler!

My name is Andrew Cabral and I'm writing to you from India.

I first came across you on the Talk page of Indian Mathematics. So, I know that you've had run-ins with Hindu "nationalists". I had recently left a communication on Jimmy Wales' Talk page about the influence of Hindutva on Wikipedia. One editor agrees with my views but isn't exactly pro-active. Two others believe that Hindutva is just another brand of nationalism, which it most certainly is, but they don't seem to realize that it is far more ubiquitous and dangerous than other nationalistic tendencies. I request you to visit Jimmy Wales' page and at least read what I have to say. I'm not trying to rally support for my idea (far from it), but I don't like the fact that those who don't really know or understand Hindutva can be so dismissive of my words. I believe that all the editors on Wikipedia, not just those working on India pages, should at least know exactly what they're dealing with.

Also (and this is entirely unrelated), I loved your reply to someone who asked if you were Pakistani (somewhere at the top of your page). ;)

Sincerely,

Andrew Cabral — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.150.40 (talk) 07:14, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Done. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:02, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Fowler&fowler! Have replied to you there. Thanks also for the invite to join the Maratha club. I'll think about it. As of now, could you guide me to the pages which describe the terms and conditions, etc. for editors? Also those which explain the formatting and symbols on Wikipedia pages. Danke! (Since I've already said thanks twice.)

Andrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.52.16 (talk) 19:16, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to apologize to you personally, Fowler&fowler, for my reply on Wales' page. I realized later that I was not respecting your opinions, though heaven knows that that was never my intention. I have just made a public apology to you on that page and replied to a potential Hindutva apologist. Also, ignore my last request. I think I've found something which should help. Will check that out after Jimmy Wales blanks out the section I'd created. Take care!

Andrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.8.226 (talk) 19:08, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

No worries. I wasn't offended in the least bit. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Fowler&fowler! Mighty relieved to hear that, even if you're just being polite to a relative stranger. After all, you were the only one from among the entire lot whom I'd known of before. Anyway, Happy Editing and everything else to you! Cheerio!

Andrew

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Bangladeshi, Bihari and Muslim League (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Regarding this edit, sources should only go in the "References" section if they are actually referenced in the article with a citation. Otherwise, they should go in the "Further reading" section. You should either use the source to back up statements in the article, or move it to further reading. All the best, – Quadell ^(talk) 13:02, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I understand that. I'm suggesting he use the reference. It is important. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:04, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so long as the final result is in line with the MOS, it's all good. – Quadell ^(talk) 14:11, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Rather than bitching fix the prose. Easy to whine when another has done all the work I suppose. You try reading up on this, it is not pleasant shit. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:35, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

It's my way of saying that the article is not ready to be an FA. It can't be fixed easily. I could fix one sentence, but there are many many more. Were I you, I would take if off FAC, change its name to "Rape in Bangladesh, 1971" and then rewrite it keeping the unversed reader in mind. I don't for a moment underestimate the horror of the war crimes. You owe it to the victims to turn out a better product. FAC is never a walk in the park. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:00, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

That title is not only based on already existing Wikipedia articles, it is also the title of a book. I have worked on this for a bit, do not dare tell me I owe the victims a better product, if it were not for me this would not even exist. I have done my best, sorry you think it is not good enough. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:13, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Since you seem to be in a churlish mood, forget my offer of helping out with the images. Next time you leave an edit summary of the kind you just left above, you're looking at a trip to ANI. Got it? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:10, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for adding those images, it was real good of you, especially after I was such a tit. Darkness Shines (talk) 13:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you take a look at my recent additions and changes to the background section please? I think I have gotten it the way the reviewers want but would appreciate your input. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:13, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Really sorry, but I've been busy all day and I'm out of town this coming week. So any real input from me will have to wait until next week. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Would you be able to comment on this question?--Dwaipayan (talk) 00:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

@Dwaipayanc: I've replied at the Hyderabad talk page. Thanks for posting! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Greetings Fowler, Since in this edit to Karma in Jainism you cited a quote of Michael Witzel, (Wales Professor of Sanskrit), I was just wondering if you can help me get some more info about the "Wales Professorship". I am interested to get the article upto GA/FL status. Kindest Regards. Solomon7968 16:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure, it is the oldest endowed chair in Sanskrit in the US, established in 1880. It was held before Witzel by Daniel H. H. Ingalls, Sr., among whose students are Wendy Doniger, Diana Eck, Sheldon Pollock and Robert Thurman (Uma's dad). Just do a Google search and plenty sources will turn up. As for Karma in Jainism, it already is a GA, but its main problem (which it shares with other Jainism related articles) is that its sources are very shabby and it is attempting to push Jain antiquity. Please see User:Fowler&fowler/Sources for Jainism for high-quality sources. In the opinion of the best-known scholars of ancient India, Jainism, like Buddhism, goes back not much further than 500 BCE. In contrast, the sources that the Jainism-articles are using are written by dubious scholars, many of whom are Jains, some even retired dentists, published by little-know back alley publishers. I doubt that any of those biased interpretations will make it through an FAC run. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Fowler but I need some clarification (BTW, I am interested to take only the Wales Professor of Sanskrit upto GA/FL status not Karma in Jainism).

• Any possible sources for "Henry Ware Wales" the benefactor? He was apparently a student of Indologist Albrecht Weber and friend of William Dwight Whitney, also mentioned in the Tales of a Wayside Inn poem collection of the American poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.
• Any possible text source for the "will" of Henry Ware Wales dated April 24, 1849?
• The chair was established in January 26, 1903, why not after the death of Wales in 1856?
• Charles Rockwell Lanman was elected as the inaugural holder of the Wales chair in March 23, 1903. Who were his contenders? (Also see Boden Professor of Sanskrit election, 1860). Any Possible sources for "Wales Professor of Sanskrit election, 1903"? Possible articles for the other 4 elections?
• In this blog Navaratna Rajaram says that the "Wales Professor of Sanskrit", was "previously known as the Prince of Wales Professor". True? Solomon7968 07:39, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

@Solomon7968: Very sorry, I completely forgot about your post. This is a tricky one. I think your best bet would be to email Michael Witzel ( witzel@fas.harvard.edu ), explain what you are attempting to do and ask him to suggest the best sources. He's the one to ask, especially for an article on the Wales professorship. I'm sure he'd be delighted to offer help. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Just never thought of emailing Witzel directly (Will try to do so shortly). BTW, the {{mention|Solomon7968}} apparently didn't triggered the automatic notification to me. Solomon7968 17:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

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Ya, funny how that happens whe nyou cover points raised by reviewers and then sit around waiting on them to respond. For gods sake, I had covered a load of stuff raised by Nick and he never got back to me. Sorry your patience wore thin, but if you had access to those books why not edit the article? You were about as much help as Hamiltonstone, the one who said I ought to renominate it. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:53, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

@Darkness Shines: I have only one of those books, not all, but I have other priorities both in real life (I have a family, many pets, not to mention even more time consuming work-related responsibilities) and on Wikipedia. The articles that I am supposed to be working on, V. S. Naipaul, Niels Bohr, Mandell Creighton for example, have gone unedited for a long time.

There was little chance of your article being promoted, even if I had used all my available Wikipedia time on it. I believe I did you a service, by making you aware that the article needs the kind of work that can't be done on the fly in an FAC. You should read those three books cover to cover, reread them, then make notes and finally turn the notes into a cohesive narrative. You can do it, but it will take a couple of months of focused work at the very least. It is your call. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I have probably talked about this before (perhaps even with you), but your recent comment reminded me of how often wikipedia editing and article improvement is driven by "trolls". An article lies dormant, most often in poor shape, but regular editors just look at the 'diffs' in their watchlist, revert obvious vandalism, and leave the bulk of the content alone...unread. Then out steps the good old Randy from Boise edit-warring to retain his edits to the article, and the regulars have to finally step in and explain why Randy's edits are junk not-compliant with wikipedia's content policies. Further, to counter his claims sourced to a blog (or nowadays, vanity press publications available through Google Books) they have dig into the literature for high quality sources. In the process they read the actual article, expand/tighten its content, and reference it heavily to fortify it against future Randy incursions. The end result: a few editors "irritated" at being distracted from their regular editing, but much improved wikipedia content!

I am sure you can find ample examples for this phenomenon from your recent and past experiences, but here is another concrete one: wikipedia has a remarkable well-developed and well sourced article on the Fifth Veda, which owes its existence solely to one editor's insistence that his community of "Vishwabrahmins" were the sole holders of such a text that outweighed all other Vedas, and which they had successfully kept hidden from all non-Vishwabrahmin scholars through the ages.

We'd all like to imagine that in the absence of trolls, we'd simply concentrate on improving content in areas of our choice but I'm somewhat skeptical that most of us are really that self-directed and motivated (frankly, you would probably be one of the exceptions who would manage that) and, in any case, we'll never get a chance to find out. I don't mean to minimize the damage cause by Randys—an army of them have rendered large swaths of wikipedia uninhabitable (eg, Shivaji or caste related articles) and even individually they drive away great content-contributors who don't enjoy editing in an adversarial environment—but they are an inseparable part of the wikipedia ecosystem and, if only to maintain our sanity, we need to accept the role they play in it. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 23:07, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, @Abecedare:, for the nice and eminently readable post. Will reply at greater length later. Am currently engaged in reading half a dozen books in parallel, and, also in parallel, editing the Death of Subhas Chandra Bose article, which I've protected temporarily with an in-use tag, but which I need hurriedly to bring to first draft stage before someone accuses me of something or other! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:27, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

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Hope you and your family are doing OK, sorry to read there is an emergency. I have just finished The Blood Telegram, ping me when you are able, hope whoever is ill gets well soon. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks DS! Great to hear you finished Blood Telegram! Will ping when I have some time. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:07, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi! This article has been proposed for deletion. Could you please have a look? if you think this is notable enough, it can be de-PRODed.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

See User_talk:Sitush#Superfluous for some stuff about this. - Sitush (talk) 16:03, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Nice work on the article Fowler. Saved :) Hope the emergency above is not serious and best wishes. --regentspark (comment) 15:24, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Ditto F&f. I just read the article and know 100 ∞ % more about SBI than before.

Minor: Also see my edit summary here, which in hindsight I should have left as a note here instead (MOS talks about the issue somewhere, but I am too lazy to look it up). I assume that as a fellow-stickler, you won't mind the pedantry. :-) Abecedare (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2013 (UTC)j

Thanks guys. It was fun actually. Thanks Abece for the help. The people in SBI such as Trott and others, were also irritated at Bose because of Emilie Schenkl, whom they considered lower class, and were miffed that she had a better quality of life in Bose's villa, in frugal wartime Germany, than them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:52, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello, senior editor... Your edits at Sare Jahan se Accha don't seem constructive. Please be collaborative in your editing. May I inform you that I am not interested in any game of yours, nor have any “game plan” of my own. My edits at Sare Jahan se Accha were concerned with transliterations, only. So, if you are interested, you may please have the pleasure of reading this, the ALA-LC romanisation scheme for Urdu. You may also like to read WP:OR and refrain from including non-standard, self-transliterated versions of the poem to the said article. Please behave sensibly, show more prudence, look into my comments there at the talk, instead of blindly reverting the ‘new guy’. Thank you for your understanding.—ШαмıQ✍ @ 15:22, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I've replied about lalaloco on the Tarana-i-Hindi talk page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:48, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Ludicrous!! I wasn't even advocating for that lalaloco. It was your floccinaucinihilipilification of the ALA-LC scheme.—ШαмıQ✍ @ 11:49, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yes you were, only earlier in late September or early October. That's what happens when you walk into a longstanding page with guns blazing and communicate in edit summaries, instead of on the talk page. People like me who once in a while take a look at the page and don't have time for examining edit summaries in detail, simply revert. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:32, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

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Hi. I want you to know that there is a way through this, that God does have you in His hand and He will see you through. Most of all, you are not alone. All Wikipedia community prays for your family's well-being. --Jai Ho 22:50, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks very much, Seabuckthorm, for the good wishes! I am both touched and heartened. Things seem to be a looking better than when I had put up the notice. Have my fingers crossed! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:00, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Happened to see this by chance. Edit differences aren't personal. There's nothing that stops me in wishing you and your family well. May god bless you. -- Xrie (talk) 08:33, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Xrie. I appreciate the thought. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Just thought of informing that Shoulmari is a place in West Bengal and since the hermit belonged to that place, he was called "Shoulmari baba". The official spelling is Shoulmari. The place belongs to Jalpaiguri district and the PIN code is 735224. -- Xrie (talk) 09:35, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Just noticed that you updated the spelling to Shaulmari. I have seen that spelling too, though officially, it is Shoulmari. A search here with Shoulmari (but not the other spellings) returns information. But Shaulmari is also okay. By the way, I pointed this out because initially you had written it wrongly - "Shaulamari". -- Xrie (talk) 09:42, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

:) Yeah my eyesight is no longer what it once was! The problem for us is that in Google books, "Shoulmari baba" turns up two links, one of which is Anuj Dhar, the other is Savarkar, whereas "Shaulmari baba" turns up 9 links, including one which quotes the Khosla commission report. I do understand that "Shoulmari" may be the present-day spelling of the district, but the baba belongs to the early 60s. In WP it is ultimately the sources which decide what spelling to use. I'll also look up Google scholar. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:50, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Just checked. Google scholar considers neither spelling scholarly. Ie. not too many scholarly journal articles have been written about the sadhu. I would have thought there'd be a few. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:53, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

No issues in keeping the spelling as Shaulmari. Anyways, the pronunciation is the same and there are book references too. -- Xrie (talk) 10:16, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Sugata Bose, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Indian (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Womens procession during quit india1942.JPG, has been listed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at the discussion if you object to the listing for any reason. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 14:54, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. I wasn't aware at the time of the URAA rules, which I am now. So, please delete (it from Commons). Thanks for posting. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:28, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

PS Since it's a historic picture, it could be saved in Wikipedia under fair use, historic picture. Please let me know if that would be OK. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I think, yes... A good fair-use rationale can qualify it for use on Wikipedia. But it must not be used on too many pages, then. —ШαмıQ✍ @ 15:45, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for posting. I thought I had left my "fair use" thoughts on the deletion discussion page, but apparently I was just talking to myself, until you appeared. Yes, the picture is currently on British Raj (for which I had initially uploaded it in 2007), Feminism in India (to which someone must have added it) and on a subpage of mine. I'm happy to delete it from my subpage. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:01, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I really do understand the sentiment and the frustration with certain people contributing on the subject but you might find yourself in a spot of bother about this. Is there any wriggle room for toning it down a bit while essentially making the same point? I'm the pot and you're the kettle here, by the way ;)- Sitush (talk) 16:03, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Second that f&f. Edits, not editor is a good rule of thumb to follow. --regentspark (comment) 16:23, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you both. I have now both apologized and rephrased. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I've frequently been puzzled by André Wink, who is a relatively modern scholar but often seems to be out of kilter with others. I'm sure that you know of it but what do you think of his Al-Hind? If you have access to JSTOR then how much weight would you give to a rather excoriating review such as 40109549 - Sitush (talk) 09:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

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Read [2], Naipaul is also considered to have said "The older I get, the more Hindu I become." This link, he confirms to have said it"Robinson%3A+In+our+last+talk+you+said+that+you+were+becoming+more+Hindu+as+you+got+older.". Bladesmulti (talk) 06:36, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, because he's not religious, that doesn't certainly means he has no faith(that he's athiest) he denied that too, in the same page. While above sources describes that he's a Hindu. This seems pretty contradictory, because we really can't ignore one opinion for another. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

No comment on other sources but "becoming more Hindu" is not the same as being a Hindu. --regentspark (comment) 14:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi, this relates to your recent undoing of my edit to Partition of India. While I see your point, that is precisely the reason why I placed the casualty figures as between 500,000 to 1,000,000 (this is the range of figures mentioned in various documents - which i had also mentioned in the references)

I think this article's introduction SHOULD have some indication of the casualty figures, as it gives it perspective and is pretty much relevant to anyone learnign about why the partition is considered such an important event in India and Pakistan(imagine the article on the holocaust without casualty figures.)

Notthebestusername (talk) 05:14, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

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Hi, on 30 August 2013 you put back the detailed map in the Mehrgarh article after I had removed it on 16 April 2013. I agree with your point that this map is useful because it shows the "the relation to the mountains and the plains". Fortunately there also is a relief map option for the map in the infobox, which I have just activated. Personally I think this measure solves the problem you recognized and that the map can now be deleted again. But I would like to know what you think before I make any change, could you please take a look at the article and say if you would agree with removing the large map again? --AlexanderVanLoon (talk) 18:34, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't agree with you. The large map is more than an anonymous threesome of points on an anonymous relief map which doesn't show the modern names of towns and rivers, let alone other major sites of IVC, for which Mehrgarh was a precursor. As such it cannot be replaced, at least not by the rudimentary map you are proposing (relief in or out). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:59, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

PS This is a busy time for me. I check my posts infrequently. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:59, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay, in that case I'll resign myself to your disagreement. However, what bothered me most is that the map was shown above the infobox; in every Wikipedia article the infobox is always on top. So I went ahead and placed the map just below the infobox. I also made it a thumbnail so that the caption which was already supplied with the image is actually shown. I assume you have no issue with this minor change? --AlexanderVanLoon (talk) 11:23, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

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I hope that you will consider improving Wendy Doniger. This is not improving the article. — goethean 15:04, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

I would if I had the time. I do know a little about the topic. But we can't source things to a CV. It is better for the article to have cn tags than unsourced material. Sorry, but this is the best I can do right now. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:19, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, that's nice. — goethean 16:21, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing me to McComas Taylor's very interesting paper. However, why are you using it in an abusive way to turn the article into a hatchet job? Please stop taking the most negative phrase in the entire article, ripping it out of context, and sticking it in the Wikipedia article. This is morally wrong, violates BLP, and I'm going to re-do all of your work once you lose interest. Why are you functioning as a Hindu fundamentalist? Please, just stop what you are doing. I don't know why you are doing it, but you seem to have some deep personal animus against Doniger. Please just stop. — goethean 14:06, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Taylor's paper is a hatchet job, a one-sided defense. Witzel is hardly disagreeing with Doniger over the recondite points of Rig-Vedic scholarship. He doesn't think she is a rigorous Sanskrit translator. The Gilmartin review is hardly positive. Obviously, Taylor, himself is unaware of all the reviews, as Kollf's was published in the same issue of the Indian Historical Review as Gilmartin. As for "Hindu fundamentalist," please leave that complaint on WT:INDIA. They'll get a laugh out of it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what you will redo. As the putative "keeper" of the article, you had apparently no problem with the pathetic, unWikipedian state it was in before I stepped in. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:42, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I use sources in a responsible neutral way, rather than finding the worst of the worst of the worst, ripping it out of context in order to slam an author. — goethean 15:01, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

How come there was no criticism of Doniger in her page before I turned up, only good things. There has been plenty criticism right from the start. As for the nonsensical Hindu nationalist connection you are making, there are other academics, more rigorous than Doniger, such as Romila Thapar or Michael Witzel himself, who have taken on the Hindu nationalists a lot more stridently than Doniger has (California and NCERT text book controversies). If I were even remotely thinking of defending Hindu nationalism, I would have been messing with their pages as well. Indeed, as someone who read his first Doniger book in 1978, why would I have waited this long to even edit her page? It is just that, when I saw the page last weekend, I immediately knew it was a little shrine in an alcove page, disconnected from scholarly criticism. So, I decided to apply a corrective, a counterpoise, but as Camus reminded us, they come with a balance and a price. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:53, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

The previous version of the article was a compromise that User:Shii worked out. It used the best sources in a responsible way. What you are doing is completely indefensible. Let's find the only negative snippet in a long positive article in order to put the subject of a BLP in the worst light possible. Who cares if the authors of the source material would blanch at your abuse of their writings, right? The important thing is to mine journal articles for negative snippets and then disregard the context in order to paint the picture that you want. I don't know anything about your beliefs, but you are acting exactly like the fundamentalists.

And now you are edit warring to keep your abuse of source material in the article. This is truly shameful, and I am truly sorry about whatever has driven you to this point. — goethean 16:02, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Really? Where has Witzel said anything positive about Doniger's Sanskrit translations? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:13, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Please be serious. You're not using Witzel, you are abusing McComas Taylor. — goethean 16:32, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm afaid Witzel said that, not Taylor. Taylor merely quoted Witzel. As you will see in this review of Witzel's new book, Origins of the World's Mythologies, he is a different kettle of fish, more historical, philological, and scientific than Doniger. Here is the reviewer: "Witzel thoroughly eschews the Chicago school of comparative religion, including most of Eliade. He regards J. Z.Smith’s approach as much too limited and strongly disagrees with Smith’s skepticism about historical comparison. He has nothing to say about Wendy Doniger (46) and does not substantively mention some of Chicago’s more notable students, such as Laurie Patton or Jeffrey Kripal, although he does draw from Lawrence Sullivan’s work on South American mythology." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:52, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I know who Witzel is. I suggest that you stop treating me like a moron who can't see what you're doing with these sources. — goethean 16:56, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't know anything about "moron." I haven't used the word, but the article was rotting away in the intellectual backwater until just a few days ago, and over it you have been hovering since 2005 and have made over 350 edits. There was still nothing about what Donger says in her books, just hollow praise. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:07, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

And you have done nothing to improve the situation, ripping clauses from their context in order to desperately find every negative thing ever said about Doniger and putting it all in the article — which is exactly how the fundamentalists operate. You are doing yourself a disservice. — goethean 17:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Some WP:WEIGHT is needed in your edits to Wendy Doniger. Negative aspects of the book were not so widespread as to deserve mention among the award-winning book's general mixed reception. IMHO no review quotes at all should be on her bio page. Save the quotes for the The Hindus: An Alternative History page. Shii (tock) 17:53, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, Weight was what was completely absent before I edited this page. Here is the version of 14 February What does it have except little quotes of hyperbolic praise by her fellow-travelers. People have been critical of her right from the start. Marr, after all, reviewed her Siva book in 1976; he was professor at SOAS, which published the book and his review was publised in the Bulletin of the SOAS, yet we only had one fawning sentence from Gombrich (in a review of an entirely different book). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:00, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

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At the risk of further being discriminated as Hindu nationalist or anti-Hindu Buddhist (it changes all the time), why did you says "nonsense" at the Rajiv Malhotra page? He is an author. That's a fact. He is a blogger at the Huffington Post. That's also a fact. VictoriaGrayson (talk) 02:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

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