Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics/Archive 26
Photos no longer under Indian CopyrightCan you guys upload some photos who's Indian copyright has expired because they were taken more than 60 years ago? such as the one that is already there on the Indira Gandhi page? I saw some expired ones on this page of past famous leaders: [1] Can someone upload it to the appropriate pages? Thanx Tri400 13:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC) Can anybody verify this highly unlikly article? The only source I could find is this blog according to it the law is about protecting people from being accused of witchcraft not prosecuting witchcraft. Mieciu K 23:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC) New projectI stumbled on WikiProject Dravidian civilizations today. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 01:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC) Could someone rewrite this mess into an encyclopedia article? Corvus cornix 07:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC) Could someone who knows India have a look at this article. If it was about an Australian ethnic group then single article contributer User:Deepaksharma555 would have had his house firebombed. It has been tagged as non-notable since Deepaksharma555 created it. Thanks, Garrie 23:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC) PatparganjIt seems to me that the stub Patparganj, which has long been tagged with notability concerns, should be merged somewhere - but I'm not sure to which article. If you can help with this matter, please add your comments to the article's talk page. Thanks! --B. Wolterding 10:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC) BhardwajsA Help Page post suggests that Bhardwajs and Bhardwaj should be merged and placed into a new article entitled Bharadwaj since Bharadwaj is the more proper spelling of the surname. Some assistance on this matter would be appreciated. -- Jreferee (Talk) 23:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
This article from the pioneer illustrates the context of a page like this.Bakaman 00:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC) People of Indian descent?The Category:South Asian Canadians and natioanl subcats (Category:Indo-Canadians, Pakistani, Sri Lankan) have been fragmented by the new addition of Category:Canadians of Indian descent, and unwieldy caste categories like Category:Canadians of Jat descent and religio-nationalist stickering like Category:Canadians of Parsi descent. The discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_June_22#X_by_descent.Bakaman 16:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC) last chance for a quick edit and polishLucknow will appear on the wikipedia main page very soon (linked to a did you know story) Victuallers 21:31, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
This page uses a pakdef.info article as source for Indian casualties, which is absolutely ridiculous. can anybody improve on that? 203.200.35.36 12:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC) The Balti wine article is up for AfD. Admittedly, I've never heard of this Indian wine before so as a member of the wine project I'm going to do a little research and see what I can contribute to the article. I suspect that ultimately it would be better served merged as paragraph section into an article on Indian wine, which unfortunately doesn't exist at the moment. I was wondering if members of the India project would be willing to help in working on these two articles, especially the Indian wine one? Any help would be greatly appreciated. AgneCheese/Wine 18:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC) This article was created recently. I speedily deleted an earlier version of it for lack of context, but it has now been recreated with enough context to keep. However, it really needs clean-up, and I am very ignorant on the subject of peoples of India. I'm sure the article's creator would appreciate any assistance with clean-up and sources. Thanks! --Ginkgo100talk 00:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC) A few months ago, I posted on Talk:Subhash Mukhopadhyay (physician) a question about why Dr. Mukhopadhyay was denied recognition by the West Bengal government for becoming the first physician in India to achieve in vitro fertilisation and in fact the first outside the UK. Can anyone provide any information about that? --Metropolitan90 18:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Maize in Early Pandyan SocietyHad Maize spread out of Mesoamerica by 200 CE? It seems unlikely.
New Navigation boxI made this navagation box as a one off for Tourism in India, maybe it could be used for other articles that are in the template. I got the links for all the different places from the tourism in India article, so hopefully they are relevant to the title of the template, does anyone have an opinion. User talk:Mindys12345
Also: I have this to save a bit of room in certain articles:
Indraneil SenguptaAs part of the Notability wikiproject, I am trying to sort out whether Indraneil Sengupta is notable enough to have an own article. I would appreciate an expert opinion. If you can spare some time, please add your comments to the article's talk page. Thanks! --B. Wolterding 14:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Naming convention for articles about colonies and insignificant placesI have been noticing many articles for colonies that have the same name in different cities. Sadly, none of the articles that I have come across have followed the naming conventions. No individually distinguishable information can be presented in such articles. If a colony is popular or has historical significance for some reason then the article should be titled "Colony name (City/Town, India)", not just "Colony name". This would also be in line with Wikipedia naming conventions. I suggest a guideline be added in Indian geography categories to stop this non-sense trend. — Aksera 17:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC) New potential category inquiryHi. I'm working on the Uncategorized category Wikiproject. I'd like to create a subcategory of needed categories relating to this project, Category:Uncategorised India articles. Similar categories already exist for France, Italy, and Germany. You could refine it or alter it to be better suitable for project needs. Just a humble suggestion. :) -Ebyabe 17:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC) AFD on B Jain publisherHi India folks. You might be interested in this AFD, or helpful in improving the article on this Indian Publisher so it is not deleted: [2]. I apologize but I could not figure out how to list on the articles related to India AFD page. Abridged talk 20:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC) Yes, I realise the above-mentioned page is not about India, but I've just put this article up for peer review (here), and was looking for a wide audience - I'm thinking editors interested in Indian history might have a few ideas on how to improve this Indonesian article. Note the time period (1945-50) is the same as an important episode in Indian history! I'd be most grateful if any could offer suggestions or even edit the article directly. thanks Merbabu 12:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Tourism in IndiaSome serious work need to be done in Tourism in India. Although I don't think the state-wise breakup is a good approach, I started out by arranging them in alphabetic order and was cleaning up sections one by one until I was intervened abruptly by bang, bang, bang, three consecutive reverts by two different users. I have tried to explain in the talk page why I was cleaning up the article and since then it seems some minor cleanup has been done on that article by those users. I let it go for now because users insist on keeping their version. This article needs some major work. Gnanapiti 20:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC) ![]() I don't know if you have seen this page before, but user:Hindutashravi seems to be indulging his appetite for irredentist myth-making by claiming areas of Xinjiang for Ladakh and Kashmir. Hindutash Davan is the historical name of a pass in the Kunlun Mountains, which connects Sumgal on the Karakash River to Hotan. In the 1909 Imperial Gazetteer Map of India, it was clearly not a part of Kashmir. (See map on right; top right of map.) There are a number of other pages: Karakash River, Hotan that have similar false claims. I would urge editors keep an eye out for similar inaccuracies. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
The Daltonganj article recently came up in a question on the Help desk (permanent link). The article needs much work. Could someone with knowledge of the area please see to it? Thanks. --Teratornis 02:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC) Featured article review for Rail transport in IndiaThe article Rail transport in India has been in Featured article review for some time now. Main issues have been addressed. Please see the article's entry. Now the article needs a review for the langusge issue. Can any one please go through the article for improving the language? Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC) PadyatraSomeone, have a look at padayatra. I personallz cannot trace the origin of the term, but the info in the current article is obviously wrong. --Soman 12:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC) I have nominated this for deletion. Please voice your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Biaora level crossing accident. Circeus 01:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC) KashmirThe article on Kashmir has "kashmir" spelt wrongly in the devanagari script, i dont know how to correct it, and i dont know where else to post this comment of mine, sorry if i've voilated any talk page guidelines! Vineeta.sastry 15:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
"Weekipedia" on CNN IBNCNN-IBN has recently renamed one of its weekend shows to Weekipedia.[3][4] It's a wonderful recognition of the growing popularity of Wikipedia, but I was wondering if there might be some legal issues involved here. The word Weekipedia is undoubtedly a play on the word "Wikipedia", which is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia foundation. Can some of our legal experts comment on this?--thunderboltz(TALK) 14:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Posting this here because it is indirectly related. I'm tired of wasting my time. If one reads the whole discussion at Talk:Pakistan_Studies#Pakistani_opinion_needed, it would be clear what's going on. Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 15:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of the very specific racial, political, sociological and cultural definition of the term Black people, which does not include Dravidians, User:Vmrgrsergr is adding the image you can see on the right to the article. Looks like a violation of WP:NOR to me. deeptrivia (talk) 20:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC) Expert review: KSS BhatAs part of the Notability wikiproject, I am trying to sort out whether KSS Bhat is notable enough for an own article. I would appreciate an expert opinion. For details, see the article's talk page. If you can spare some time, please add your comments there. Thanks! --B. Wolterding 12:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC) It is given to understand that the Army Institute of Technology Pune is only for wards of Defence personnel, why is the civilian population denied the right to apply to the Army Institute technology at Pune? The Defence personnel not only enjoys the right to send their wards to the top institutes of India which is managed by civilians, but at the same time prevent the civilian population in getting access to Army institute of technology at Pune which is unfair and I guess must be illegal.Why as a citizen of India,should a civilian be denied the right to apply to Army Institute of technology at Pune? --Drillman 14:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC) Idol seriesA wikiproject for idol series here contains very less participation from Indian Idol side. If someone is following the TV program or knows about the program, please feel free to join it. Thanks--Eukesh 15:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC) Goa nominated for WP:FARGoa has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. GizzaDiscuss © 05:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC) "Indian Television" workgroup?I was wondering why there is no "Indian Television" department under the "Arts and Entertainment" section in the Project Organisation. I beleive Indian Television plays a serious part in scope of "India" just as well as the Cinema and Literature deparments. So is another deparment going to be added soon or does this WikiProject need to be discussed about it first? Because I am not quite keen in expanding any of the other deparments that are avaliable to expand at the moment. Thank You. --Bhavesh Chauhan 01:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I am willing to start a new workgroup with a clear outline and a goal and I know a couple of Wikipedians who constantly help me update Indian Television-related articles. These people could possibly be invited to help participate in this workgroup. I'm also 100% sure that more people will come participate to help achieve consistency, quality and accuracy in all Indian Television related articles and to create comprehensive pages about these articles. If someone believes this workgroup isn't necessary or if you just wish to comment about this new workgroup, please leave a response. Thank You. - Bhavesh.Chauhan 17:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
As at 1 June 2007 222 people have received the Padma Vibhushan award, India's second highest civilian honour. .The full list is here[5].However the related category has less than 100 pages. Can we all create pages for remaining people who received the second highest civil award. Shyamsunder 7:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Jat peopleCan someone ( perhaps an administrator) look at the discussion page of Jat article and the talk pages of the major editors involved and take appropriate action to settle the issues.Thanks.Shyamsunder 18.18, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Competence assessment in AyurvedaI request ayurved sholers to formulate a plan to make Units of each performance of treatment activity so that evidences can be obtained for each and cirtification can de done at different levels —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.231.245.3 (talk • contribs) 11:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC). Greco-Buddhism FARGreco-Buddhism has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here..Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC) ProposalIt has been proposed by me (SpecialWindler) that a new bot go through and assess certain articles. These certain articles are categorised in the Unassessed category but also in an Assessed category (either as FA, A, GA, B, Start or Stub). However there are many articles which have been assessed as one thing while another project has yet to assess the article. The bot's proposal would be to assess the unassessed article as the other projects assessment, which would save time for that assessment. Take Talk:Shane Perry as an example, it is rated as Start for the WikiProject Biography but unassessed for the Rugby league WikiProject. Would it not save the time of the Rugby league assessment team to have it assessed as Start by a bot. However the problem is that various WikiProjects have different assessment criteria. While most projects base it of this {{Grading scheme}}, some may not and wouldn't like a bot to do that. If you would like to make a suggestion about this bot proposal you may want to add a suggestion at this page under the section "Comments from WikiProjects", in which you should state which WikiProject you come from. You may also want to look at the background of this proposal at Bot requests (under "WikiProject assessing" section) and then Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team (under "bot" section). This message was substed from this page to alert some WikiProjects whether this bot is a good idea, to see if it can be run. It is planned that some WikiProjects will not like the idea and can be excluded from this bot, if it does go ahead. Thankyou. SpecialWindler talk 10:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC) Kaziranga up for FACKaziranga National Park has been nominated for FAC .Kindly support at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kaziranga National Park. It needs some immediate minor copy editing. Help needed. Amartyabag TALK2ME 05:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC) Abdul KalamHello all, How about collaborating on Dr. Abdul Kalam page for Featured article of the day on July 25, 2007. July 25, 2007 will be the Last of Dr. Abdul Kalam as the president of India. --Phoe6 14:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Bharat Ratna recipients, extra namesDid Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose and Atal Bihari Vajpayee ever received this award. As per external link mentioned on Bharat Ratna page they did not but this name appears on Bharat Ratna page. Vjdchauhan 17:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC). Shiva nominated for Wikipedia:Article Collaboration and Improvement DriveAny parties willing to help improve this article should indicate their support at the WP:ACID page. Thank you. John Carter 19:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC) MudaliarsPlease visit my website www.mudaliars.co.nr and correct the article named Mudaliars or replace it with the existing article in Wikipedia titled "Mudiraju" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.92.33.188 (talk • contribs) 17:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC). Government under the British RajI am very impressed by the level of detail on Indian topics, as almost every article I find on the subject seems to be of at least a moderate standard, and many are excellent. Would this be the right place to put in a request? I'm interested in the development of democracy and the Legislative councils under British rule, and early political parties and the like. Is it possible that such an article could be developed? Again, I'm not so sure where to put this, but if any Indian editors do read this, thank you for doing so. Cheers, Michael talk 01:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC) Category:Proposed states and union territories in IndiaI think the category Category:Proposed states and union territories in India is unnecessary . By the way who has "proposed" these new states ?. This category should be scrapped .Any comments.Shyamsunder 08:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Aryan migrationSome kind of pattern here: History of India, History of Indian Caste system, Vedic Age, Proto-Indo-Europeans, Rigveda. Nearly 40 edits at terrific speed. Can some one look into this please. I am not sure what ought to be done.--Shahab 17:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC) punjabi baniaDear sir, The word Punjabi Bania in your Wikipedia is not correct due to following region:- 1)Agarwal bania or vaish is on of the largest subcaste of vaish caste in India.They are divided in following manner:- a) According to their places or inhabitation(last two Used only by agarwal people in old days now eliminated)marwari means resident of marwar (all caste and people) including Agarwal bania and jain. (1Marwari (2)Purabiye(Eastern) (3) Pachihiye(Westran) b)According to rules:- 1) Bisa Aggarwal:- twenty rules were subscribed for an Aggarwal of model character. Those who followed all rules were called Bisa Aggarwal. 2) Dassa Aggarwals:- followers of ten rules were called Dassa Aggarwals 2) The Agarwal and Jain Community of punjab is migarated from Hindi speaking area mainly Rajasthan and Haryana. 3)Agroha (Hindi Speaking village)is mythological origin(May be right or wrong) of Agarwal during Mahabhartha priod. 4)We are not calling Agarwal or jain community of Nibhoring state of Punjab i.e Jamu and Khasmir and Himachal Pardesh as Khasmiry Bania or Himachaly Bania ,Even the word Haryanbi Bania is not used . 5) The Agarwal and Jain Community is also migrated to other part of country but we are not calling them Bengaly Bania,Bihary Bania Marathy Bania or Nepaly Bania. 6)In hindi speaking area caste system was rigid and only vaish or bania caste people was doing bussinac work in old days but in punjab caste system was not rigid .People of Khatri , Arora and sood caste doing bussinace work of punjab.We can call them bussinac community of punjab.For brrowing other state people you can not create new caste system for punjab. 7) In history we never heared the word punjabi Bania.At present we never call the agarwal or jain caste people residing in punjab as Punjabi Bania. 8) If a Khatri , Arora or Jat caste people of punjab migrate to other part of country can we call them Bihary Khatri ,Arora or Jat ,Bengaly Khatri , Arora or Jat ,Tamil Khatri / Arora or Jat! Even we can not place Khatri , Arora or Jat in caste system other part of India.(Jat are orignal of inhabitation of Punjab ,haryana ,U.P,Rajasthan, etc.) 9) We can call Agarwal and Jain caste as one of the bussinace community peole of Punjab not Punjabi Bania. 10)All over India there is no state or language based division of caste system for agarwal or jain.So, please do not divide grate Agarwal or jain people in the name of State or Language . Thanks. Arun —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kuarun (talk • contribs) 14:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC). Red links in pages on top posts in India
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vjdchauhan (talk • contribs) 01:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC). hey everyoneNaturally, as you guys are pretty much owning everyone else in terms of featured articles, I was wondering if someone could teach me how to tweak a project banner such that two importance categories pop up. For example, at Jallianwala Bagh massacre, Indian history places the article at Top, while the mother project places it at High. Both importance fields are popping up. What exactly is the code to create a custom importance field? Thanks in advance, everyone. Pandacomics 11:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Shiva candidate for Article Improvement CollaborationShiva is a candidate for the WP:ACID collaboration. Any interested parties should feel free to indicate their willingness to help improve the article there. Thank you. John Carter 16:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC) Apparently a new concept on wikipedia. I don't quite like it, but if this is the way everyone's going, perhaps we should consider having something for WP:INDIA as well. deeptrivia (talk) 23:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone try to (permanently) get rid of the spam and other unencyclopedic material on this page? I tried doing it before, but the anons and spammers keep returning. I would greatly appreciate any help. Thanks GizzaDiscuss © 05:54, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
GreetingsHello to everyone who reads this. I've recently become involved in an issue with an Indian page, Ghosh which seems to have two different sets of people, one of them wishing to post information with a less than favorable slant, and another (whose name is Ghosh) who seeks to have the article cleaned up and improved with citations and references. (That person is not qualified to do it, as their level of English is not one that would allow them to improve the article's readability.) They have asked that I intervene, as they have stated that there seem to be two different articles being copied/pasted/reverted and that much of the information is incorrect and unkind. I come to you all, as I am completely unqualified to perform the actions that are required. I know very little about Indian culture or religion, much less the lineage/history of names. Therefore I could neither spell-check it, or edit it for neutrality. This issue has been going on for some time now, and I initially got invoved while on RC patrol, simply to correct some formatting errors and obvious spelling errors. (Like the leading spaces before sentences, leading to the unformatted box). Also, it seems that someone is feeling every word needs to be "wiki-linked" and words like 'warrior' 'support' 'before' etc. were all wiki-linking, making it extremely distracting. There are also issues with capitalization, but again, not having a knowledge of which words are proper names, I'm unable to properly attempt to edit it. I have the impression that the person(s) who seek to improve the validity and neutral voice of the article are willing to discuss it on the talk page, but those who continue to revert to the other version are not willing to discuss it, leading to a very one-sided edit war between the two. I have since backed away from the article, and encouraged the persons participating in the talk page to try to not take it seriously, and that I'll do my very best to get an expert to assist. It is my hope, that someone who has a good knowledge of the culture and history could head over there, and perhaps make it their "pet" project for a time. I'm hoping that once there are references, and a standard of neutrality is implemented, then it will be easier to bring the article in line, and the edit wars will stop. Thank you sincerely in advance for any assistance you can provide. Ariel♥Gold 15:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
SocksHas anyone else noticed the following likely socks and determined which is the primary? See: Buddhipriya 19:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Indian ScoutingCan someone please render Taiyar (Be Prepared), the Scout Motto, into Hindi? Thanks! Chris 15:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC) TRSHi, please keep an eye on the Telangana Rashtra Samithi page. Its edited by partisans frequently, and needs serious wikification. --Soman 06:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC) Use of British India flagHi, I'm not sure about using British India flag for people born before 1947 like here. What do you people think? -- Sundar \talk \contribs 10:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Flags are overused, misused, and misrepresented. People who were born and died before 1947 ... between the years of 1858-1947, were technically citizens of British India (with separate passport issued for them). Their nationality is officially "British Indian". However, adding flags for birth location often tends to confuse the readers. --Ragib 18:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Two other section in WP:FLAG that are relevant (in addition to the ones mentioned above) are: sections Don't rewrite history and Use historical flags in contexts where the difference matters. British India (or, more correctly, the British Indian Empire) was a legal entity, which was represented in the League of Nations, had its own Olympics teams, and as mentioned by user Ragib, issued its own passport. Thus, in the India at the 1924 Summer Olympics, clearly the flag displayed is the correct flag, since, players marched under the flag of British India in the opening ceremony, received the gold medal to the tune of "God Save the King" (George V was King-Emperor in 1924), and traveled using a British Indian passport similar to this one. I agree that the flag should not be gratuitously displayed with mention of places of birth or death; however, if it is displayed with nationality information, it needs to be the historically correct flag. For better or worse, Gandhi was a citizen of British India for most of his life. There is no irony in that; those are the facts. You might decide that nationality doesn't merit a flag in Gandhi's infobox, but if you are going to display one for it, it has to be the flag of British India (until 1947) and not India (= Republic of India). The same goes for usage, as in the post of the user above who complained about "Madras Presidency, British India." You cannot replace "British India" with India (=Republic of India). For example, would you then write, "Jinnah was born in Karachi, Bombay Presidency, India (=Republic of India)?" As for other tertiary sources (like Britannica and Encarta), they do use "British India," as in the examples below:
Replacing British India with India (disambiguation) was advocated by user:Rama's Arrow, but that discussion never reached any consensus, and, in my opinion, was an unsatisfactory solution in the first place. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I concur with both F&F's and Priyanath's positions (since I see no contradiction in them). If I may summarize the above discussion, I think we all agree that
Clearly further discussion is needed to hammer out the details of point number 2, but we seem to have consensus on point number 1. If so, can go around removing flags marking places of birth/death , or is there some objection to that ? I hope that this discussion leads to something actionable and not just serve as an outlet for us to vent. :-) Abecedare 04:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I disagree that saying India=Republic of India. The present Republic of India is the direct continuation of British India, it is the same entity as British India which obtained independence. The fact that its borders are not identical to British India is not relevant, the political entity didn't cease just because some areas were separated from it in 1947 (just as it didn't cease to exist when Burma was separated from it in 1947). There was also Portuguese and French possessions in India at the time, however its not really necessary to disambiguate British India from these possession as they were very small. --Soman 11:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
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